dcfandomcom-20200222-history
Talk:Superman is confusing
Kur... masz. Someone erased everything I wrote. I am not entering false information and I am citing the references. Kowalewski (talk) 14:28, November 21, 2017 (UTC) :You added several sections: :* "Who was the first modern superhero on Earth-One?" Though it is definitely an interesting question, it's irrelevant to Superman's continuity woes. It's also not actually citing references. :*" When did Earth-One Superman begun his career?" has incosistent but always insufficient markup and poor composition. Also, is there a source that Superboy Vol 2 23 is an explicit retcon? :I didn't delete the second section, but technically, it's more something for Kal-El (Earth-One)'s notes section. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 14:37, November 21, 2017 (UTC) :I got a chuckle out of the "Don't get us started on Rebirth" comment but it can really be streamlined into three points: :In 2015, Convergence ended with the prevention of the destruction of the multiverse in Crisis on Infinite Earths with all the Earths saved but in "evolved" form effectively bringing back all the old Supermen. The New Earth Superman left with his family to fight in Crisis.( ) :In 2016, the new Superman died and it was revealed that the New Earth Superman, Lois, and their son Jon were all transported to Prime Earth and lived under the name "Smith".( ) Superman and Lois eventually step into the roles of their Prime Earth counterparts. :In 2017, it was revealed the New Earth and Prime Earth Supermen were actually two parts of the same being and were remerged.( ) This resulted in Superman's history changing again into a mixture of New Earth and Prime Earth history.( ) :Though if you wanted to be flippant you could add "And you thought Post-Crisis Hawkman was a mess." :-) :Though seriously it is staggering how short a time it took DC to make Superman's continuity a mess compared to how long things took before Crisis. Ironically the writers seemed to have a better handle on continuity (or at less where Superman's history wasn't a totally FUBAR) back when it really didn't matter.--BruceGrubb (talk) 16:51, November 21, 2017 (UTC) ::That's more something for the bullet points. In shorter form. In a different order. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 17:05, November 21, 2017 (UTC) :::I am confused. The order is chronological and they are very short as is. What order should they being if not chronological?--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:15, November 21, 2017 (UTC) ::::The Smiths were revealed before the death of Superman. Also, proseline = bad. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 17:21, November 21, 2017 (UTC) ::1) I think this is relevant , as people tend to remember Superman always as the first superhero. Justice League of America Vol 1 144 shows several Golden Age characters (and technically would be from Earth Two) in an embryo of what would be the Justice League, a year before the group's official formation. Since no story has been shown that they traveled from Earth Two to Earth One, it is assumed that they are counterparts on Earth One. ::2) As I explained, Superboy's continuity was always confusing. In the beginning, Superboy WAS NOT taken seriously in continuity (It would be as Tiny Toons, Flintstones Kids, or any foolishness of the genre. In short, a youthful version of a character). I once read something about the subject in an article written by John Byrne, but I can not tell which magazine would correspond in the USA. It was with the introduction of Bizarro, a Superboy villain, in the adventures of the adult Superman, that Superboy became canonical. It seems like from time to time the writers wanted to update the adventures of Superboy to a recent past in order to keep the idea of youth in the character. Then we have a Superboy in the end of the World War II, a Superboy studying psychology (!) during Vietnam War, and a Superboy (shortly before adopting the title of Superman) studying journalism during the 1970s. ::In short, I vote by a FAQ Superman page, or a table showing the differences between all his versions. I think a table could works! Kowalewski (talk) 23:38, November 22, 2017 (UTC) :::Tables should not store that much text. That's not what tables are for. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 05:42, November 23, 2017 (UTC) ::::Also there is an insane number of different Supermen. The majority of the alternate realities in Crisis on Infinite Earths: Absolute Edition involve different versions of Superman. Then there is the issue of does a Superman who belongs to a hypertime reality. Take Superman: Red Son for example, does he get three entries (Earth-1598, Earth-30, Earth 30) or just one with a note that these minor variations of the character? ::::If that is not enough then you have the issue of just what powers does each Superman have. It doesn't help that Superman's power level in what was clearly intended to be one reality fluctuated all over the place. Then you have the elephant in the room that DC itself can't agree when on a particular version of a character appeared and gives information that we have to ignore because explaining the continuity issues is a royal headache (see Bruce Wayne (Earth-One) for an example of that). --BruceGrubb (talk) 13:37, November 27, 2017 (UTC) :::::Earth-1598 would be the proper Red Son version, Earth-30 the Countdown: Arena version and Earth 30 the Multiversity version. Just like Earth-96/Earth-22/Earth 22. There are minute differences, but we decided early on to just merge -1598 and -30 into one (though I don't think we knew that first number at the time). Then the randomness of Multiversity hit and I can't honestly remember what we did with Earth 30. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 13:50, November 27, 2017 (UTC) ::::::It doesn't help that "DiDio explained that there are 52 earths, and then alternate dimensions within each universe, as well as alternate timelines and microverses within each." This means that at best Earth-1598, Earth-30, and Earth 30 are simply alternate timelines of the same reality and at worst different names for the same reality. ::::::In fact that whole alternate timelines thing answers the question of how 128 Earths minimum (CoIEAE+EWWE 2010) can exist within only "52" realities: many of them are simply alternate timelines of a main reality. Oh, it looks like Earth 30 was listed separate from Earth-30 though the characters were combined. I have added Earth-1598 to their universe listing per the above.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:47, November 27, 2017 (UTC) Wording Regarding things that can be shown to be in error "stated" should be the word used rather then "appeared" or "revealed" because neither is actually true. For example, states that was the first appearance of "Pre-Crisis Earth-Two Metropolis" even though the city itself doesn't appear anywhere in that comic. Hence the use of "stated".--BruceGrubb (talk) 15:19, December 9, 2017 (UTC) :It's not the wording that's the problem, but the voice, and its repetition. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 15:34, December 9, 2017 (UTC) ::It is another source of confusion with regards to Superman. Some of Superman history is such a botchup I'm not sure in can be reduced to a simple sentence. The 2015 - 2017 period is especially messy as DC brings back all the old Supermen, has the New Earth Superman show up on Prime-Earth, kills the Prime-Earth Superman, and then merges the New Earth and Prime Earth Superman forming yet another Superman with a different history. It might as well be the Superman Discontinuity Guide. :-)--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:45, December 9, 2017 (UTC) :::What does that have to do with what I said? --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 22:53, December 9, 2017 (UTC)